Oral Histories Transcripts

Jon Johnson was born in Southern Lancaster county, Pennsylvania and lived on his family’s farm in his early life. Charles (Charlie) Maser was born in Brownstown in Lancaster County Pennsylvania. Jon spent most of his life in Pennsylvania. He went to the York Academy of Arts in York, Pennsylvania and then worked in the Bon Ton department store doing store displays and visual merchandising. Charlie attended dental school in Washington D.C. and then enlisted in the Air Force. He was stationed in Charleston, North Carolina and then later on in Germany, and finally in Madrid. Jon and Charlie met in July of 1975 at a bar called the Fiddler when they were introduced through a mutual friend. In this interview they discuss what it was like to come out in rural Pennsylvania in the 70’s and the challenges of living in an area that was very religious. Charlie also discusses his experience being gay in the military and how surprisingly he did not face much prejudice as a result of his sexuality, especially while in Europe. The couple also reflects on the difficulty of losing friends to AIDS in the 80’s and the type of activism they became involved with during that crisis. In conclusion, Jon and Charlie express that they felt lucky that they had not faced a lot of prejudice in their lives, because of their relationship, and discuss how they feel that there are not a lot of differences between their relationship and a relationship between a straight couple.

Barry Loveland was born December 28th, 1956 in Schenectady, New York. After graduating from high school, Barry attended Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, where he obtained a Bachelors of Science degree in Architecture and Building Sciences. Following his undergraduate career, Barry got accepted at Eastern Michigan University, where he earned a Masters in Historic Preservation Planning and became very active in the LGBT community. Since his participation, Barry has been an integral member of this community. From developing Montgomery, Alabama’s first gay organization to the creation of Common Roads, Barry has demonstrated his drive and his passion for the success and the advancement of the LGBT community. In this interview, Barry discusses in great length the numerous activist roles that he has possessed in his lifetime as well as the opportunities resulting from his selfless work. Also in this interview, Barry reveals the details of his own personal lifelong journey of coming out and what support systems he uncovered along the way as he formulated his own identity.

Teresa “Teddy” Maurer was born in Lykens, Pennsylvania. Following a move to Upper Dauphin County, she grew up and graduated from Halifax High School. From there she worked at the Nedrich shirt factory for a few years before moving onto a job with the state government. She eventually moved to Harrisburg and stayed there after she retired from her job at the state. She worked for the government for 37 years. She discusses her conflict with derogatory comments and other discrimination she saw in her workplace and in the greater LGBT community around her. She explains how her mother’s death at the hands of a drunk driver when she was 25 and how when a former girlfriend forced her to come out changed her life. She now works with the LGBT center to give back for the times when she could not.

Julie Lobur was born in New Kensington, Pennsylvania in 1955 and moved to Harrisburg in 1970. She received her bachelor’s degree from Penn State and added a master’s degree in computer science in 2003. Julie briefly served in the military in 1983 where she met her wife Marla, but was discharged because she is a lesbian. She currently works as a computer architect for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and an adjunct professor of computer science for Penn State.

Julie discusses her coming out process at the age of 18, in large part aided by the existence of something that might be unique to Harrisburg: a diner – The Commerce Diner – that catered to a gay clientele. Julie details how she met Marla, how they decided to get married in Iowa in 2009, how they came to be part of a set of couples suing the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to recognize their marriage, and how the lawsuit has completed her coming out process. She describes how attitudes have changed towards gay people over the years, and how this “sea change” in acceptance implies increased responsibility for gay people. She shows her gratitude to the gay men of Harrisburg by describing how they established the “gayborhood,” which she believes saved the city from blight. Human and institutional support networks have played a major role throughout Julie’s story.

Born in 1951, Mary Nancarrow grew up in the Harrisburg area, and from a young age, she has been involved in the movements for LGBT and women’s rights, especially for Central Pennsylvania. She has worked extensively with NOW, serving as the president for Pennsylvania NOW in 1984 and 1985. As part of this involvement, she helped to plan the first march on Washington for LGBT rights, which was eventually held in 1987. Additionally, she was one of the founders of the Pennsylvania Rural Gay Caucus, and she was also very involved in the drafting and passing of the Harrisburg Human Relations Ordinance, ensuring that the legislation provided protection against discrimination for LGBT people. She recently retired from the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission after over 20 years. In this interview, she discusses what it was like to be gay in the ’70s, ’80s, and ‘90s, particularly in the Central Pennsylvania area, recalling discrimination she and others faced during that time period, her struggles with coming out to her parents, notable events of the era and her personal reaction to them, and her dedication to LGBT and women’s rights and its role in her life.

Michelle Probulus, 43, describes her experience with realizing that she is a lesbian at age 40, while married to a man with whom she had two young sons. She discusses the complications of figuring out her sexuality and coming to the realization she was a lesbian and the subsequent difficulty of coming out to her husband, her children, her family, and her friends. After getting a divorce, she began getting involved in Lancaster’s LGBT community, and she describes her experiences in meeting people and working for greater LGBT acceptance, including starting her own oral history project to collect some of the experiences of women who realized they were lesbians later in life. She discusses how coming out has affected the way she raises her sons as well as her career choices, specifically her new sense of purpose as a guidance counselor in being an advocate and a support system for young people coming out.

Mark Stoner, born in 1959, grew up and currently lives in Lancaster, where he has worked as a graphic designer for the past 30 years. He came out as gay early in his college years at Penn State University and thereafter became involved in Lancaster’s gay community, both socially and politically. He was among the founders of the Pink Triangle Coalition and worked extensively with the organization for years. Additionally, he has been involved with establishing the first Central Pennsylvania Pride and Lancaster Pride, the Lancaster-area gay publication Inqueery, and the Lancaster City Human Relations Commission’s protections against anti-LGBT discrimination. In this interview, he discusses gay life from the late ‘70s to the present and its influence on his personal life, including his experiences coming out in a supportive environment, his personal relationship with religion over the years, the impact of the emergence of AIDS in the ‘80s, and political efforts to end anti-LGBT discrimination in Lancaster.

Born in Chicago, IL in 1949 to a Catholic family, Mary Merriman joined the Air Force in 1967, where she struggled with her sexuality due to the environment, eventually becoming pregnant and discharging from the military before giving her son up for adoption. She attended Montgomery College in Maryland and received a degree in psychology, after which she and her then-partner moved down to Tampa, FL. Merriman got licensed and ordained as a pastor and started a Metropolitan Community Church in Lakeland, FL in 1983, where she and the congregation dealt with the difficulties of forming an LGBT church in a conservative town as well as the emergence of AIDS. In 1987, she was called to serve as pastor at Vision of Hope MCC in Lancaster, PA, a position which she held until 1995, navigating the creation of Lancaster’s Human Rights Ordinance and the process of buying the church’s current building in Mountville, PA. Since earning her Master of Social Work degree, she has worked as a social worker at Community Care Behavioral Health in Camp Hill, PA. In this interview, she discusses her involvement in the LGBT community, especially in the area of religion, and the advances that the community has made over time.

Transcription of Clarke Hess and Lee Stoltzfuss interview. This transcript is incomplete. Please contact archives@dickinson.edu for more information.

Larry Lee Thomas was born in Burnham, Pennsylvania in 1941, living there for at least 19 years before spending four years in the military, and shortly thereafter moving to the nearby city of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. After his first experience dating another man through a 20-year relationship, Larry now lives with his partner with whom he has spent 31 years. In this interview, Larry discusses his experiences as a self-identified gay man living in Harrisburg through the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, when there was a prevalent stigma against LGBT people and few places to safely express one’s sexual orientation and meet others in the community. He also discloses his challenges of managing both personal and professional relationships by selectively deciding to come out or not within particular social circles. While he does not actively participate in LGBT activism, Larry admires the amount of freedom that he sees in the gay community today, while commenting that LGBT young people may be unaware of how difficult life was only a few decades ago.

Bernie Pupo was born in Kulpmont, Pennsylvania in 1945 and attended Mount Carmel Catholic High School. After working in a factory after high school, Bernie moved to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, where he worked as a window decorator for Pomeroy’s department store for three years. During this time, he also joined SCAAN, the South Central Aids Assistance Network, which is now known as the AIDS Alliance. In this interview, Bernie speaks about his most memorable experience as a Boy Scouts leader, as well as his experience working in and visiting gay clubs in cities such as Harrisburg, Reading, Philadelphia, New York, Baltimore, and D.C. During this interview, he also speaks about how he experienced very little homophobia in both his family and overall social life, despite living in a small town during the 60s and growing up as a practicing Catholic. Bernie, still Catholic, now works as a hair dresser and owns his own salon.

Nancy Datres was born in Altoona, Pennsylvania in 1948 and moved to Harrisburg to pursue computer science after becoming blacklisted by the Altoona Police Department when she was just 27 years old. Thereafter, Nancy moved through several careers, holding positions such as college professor, journalist, legal writer, and lawyer. In her interview, Nancy discusses the incredible impact of her sexuality on the course of her academic and professional life, which required her to change schools and even careers whenever an environment became too unsafe for her to stay. She illustrates several examples of harassment and discrimination in her life, as well as the inefficiency of local law enforcement, educational institutions, and court systems to help alleviate these injustices. Additionally, Nancy remarks on lesbian bar culture, her difficult financial situation, and her 20-year relationship and engagement with another woman. Although she began identifying as a lesbian as a teenager, Nancy explains her difficulty to fully “come out,” insisting that she does not feel completely “out” in all aspects of her life. She believes that her hardships have impacted her ability to consistently feel comfortable sharing her sexuality with others, but expresses great hope for feeling that freedom someday.

Prior to coming out at the age of 32, Ted Martin had worked for many years for the government and public policy organizations, chiefly in the areas of communications and advocacy. Martin lived in Washington, D.C. and worked for Congress before returning to Pennsylvania, where he worked at the Historic Harrisburg Association and then his alma mater Dickinson College, at which point he came out. He became involved with the Team Pennsylvania Foundation and became part of the Rendell administration, serving in the Department of Community and Economic Development and as an advisor on LGBT issues. He currently works as the Executive Director of Equality Pennsylvania, the PA LGBT advocacy organization. In this interview, he discusses his life prior to, during, and since coming out, as well as the ways in which being out and gay has affected his life and his work.

Born in 1949 to a Lutheran minister and his wife, Marlene Kanuck married a man, had two children, and got a divorce after 11 years of marriage before realizing that she was a lesbian. In this interview, she discusses her coming out process and the effects that being a lesbian has had on her life. A teacher and a divorced mother wanting to retain custody over her children, Kanuck was not able to be openly gay for many years, and she discusses that experience, as well as her experiences in long-term relationships and in raising her children with those women. Additionally, she describes her relationship with religion and where she thinks the LGBT community is heading in the near future. Currently working at the Pennsylvania Department of Education, Kanuck is also a founder of the LGBT Center, in addition to being involved with a number of other organizations, and she discusses her involvement in opening the Center.

From the time Joseph "Joe" W. Burns came out as gay at around 27 years of age, he was involved in gay activism. He was a part of many organizations that have helped to move gay rights forward, including the Mattachine Society and Le-Hi-Ho. He donated his entire library of gay-related books to Le-Hi-Ho before retiring from his activism career, and he donated books to the LGBT archives at the Waidner-Spahr Library at Dickinson College as well. This interview focuses on his memories of activism in the early years of the Gay Liberation Movement just before and just after the Stonewall riots of 1969. He finishes this interview with an emotional recollection of the Christopher Liberation Day Parade in 1970.

For the very first interview of the history project, Edmund Good and Thurman Grossnickle describe their coming out stories. Thurman is a retired Scientist Administrator and has spent many years in academia and in health professions, as well as in LGBT organizations. He considers himself Brethren, although he no longer attends church, though a large part of his coming out process involved the organization, Dignity, which was primarily run by the late Father Saude (ph.). Upon discovering his sexuality, Thurman spent a considerable amount of his time dedicated to the LGBT community of Harrisburg, operating the Gay and Lesbian Switchboard, attending and hosting Dignity events, and serving as editor of the Dignity newsletter. Thurman discusses his involvement, his experiences living in Central PA, and his decision to never divorce his wife. Edmund is a retired apartment manager, though he is still involved in the Brethren Housing organization, which finds places for mothers going from welfare to work. Edmund explains that though he was always kind of aware of his sexuality, he hadn’t really come out before attending college. At Penn State, he was involved in several LGBT outlets, including the student organization HOPS (Homosexuals of Penn State), which was supported and funded by Penn State. Edmund, too, alludes to the friendly climate, which he’s experienced during his life as a gay man in Central PA. In the second half of their interview, Ed and Thurman tackle some deeper issues. Ed discusses how his work and family life didn’t change too much overall, but there were some bumps. At first, his parents didn’t understand what it meant to be gay, creating an estrangement. But with the introduction of Thurman into the picture, they had a change of heart. Ed and Thurman discuss other difficulties they’ve endured in 33 years as a couple. Despite being made coal on the carpet, a church backed them up and defied their national organization, making it a known safe space for LGBT couples. On a less happy note, they discuss a community’s reaction to Thurman’s friendship with a gay teenage boy. As Ed and Thurman reflect on the past events they’ve encountered, they note where we’ve come from and where we still need to go. Ed mentions several websites, webinars, and workshops that helped him as a gay man, but could also help others to understand and love thy neighbor.

Peg Welch was born in December of 1951 near in Chester County, Pennsylvania to her father, a carpenter, and her mother, a candy maker. A young mother to two children, Peg did not graduate from high school, but received her GED and worked at various jobs, eventually joining Parents Without Partners where she met her second husband, Phil. With his help supporting their family, she was able to graduate from Millersville University with a degree in social work, afterwards working at Big Brothers Big Sisters, the United Way, the YWCA, and Planned Parenthood. At the YWCA, Peg met her future wife Delma, whom she lives with today in York, Pennsylvania. Peg was an active member in York Area Lambda and helped to establish the Lesbian Alliance. In this interview, Peg describes her experiences as a single mother, her involvement in activism to get LGBT ordinances passed with the York City Human Relations Commission, her three marital ceremonies with Delma, as well as her belief in the importance of women’s spaces. Today, Peg is optimistic about the evolving opinions of the younger generation towards LGBT-identified individuals.

Delma Welch was born in Washington D.C. and grew up in Cardiff, Maryland as a Catholic with her three brothers and one sister. Delma began going to NOW [National Organization for Women] meetings in 1975 after becoming interested in feminism from an early age. After being in a relationship with a man for 23 years, she met her future wife at the YWCA and ended her marriage. Originally a stay at home mother, Delma has since held several jobs throughout her life, including her current position at the Margaret Moul Home. Today, she lives in York, Pennsylvania with her partner of 25 years, Peg Welch. In this interview, Delma discusses her involvement in many civil rights organizations and marches starting in the 70s, issues with coming out to her family, and marriage to Peg—once in Canada and once more in Pennsylvania, when gay marriage became legalized in the state. She also briefly expresses the importance of lesbian and woman-only spaces and her positive experiences dealing with the legal system as a lesbian woman in a same-sex relationship.

Jude Sharp was born in November of 1947 in East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania and graduated from the Philadelphia High School for Girls. She then attended the Tyler College of Art and studied the art of making jewelry. When she was 21, Jude married her first husband and moved to Denver, Colorado, where she opened her first jewelry shop. Upon ending her relationship, Jude moved back to Lancaster where she met her first girlfriend. Jude has been working with jewelry for nearly 50 years since, and currently has her own business, J. A. Sharp Custom Jeweler. In this interview, Jude discusses the roles her relationships and artistic visions have played in her life. In her childhood, she and her family frequently moved from town to town as her father, a Methodist minister, was transferred to different churches. She speaks of a pervading feeling of ostracism that was assuaged when she came out as lesbian, finally being able to be true to herself. Jude marvels at the changes her community has seen, and laments at the continuing problems with drug and alcohol abuse that face many LGBT individuals today, relating to her own experience. She reflects upon her desire to put creativity to a good purpose and form relationships with others through the medium of crafting personalized jewelry. Additionally, Jude discusses how her own sexuality has played a role throughout the rise of her career.

Barry Loveland interviews Alex Reber, now 32, who relates fascinating stories of what it was like growing up as an only child of an Evangelical Christian family raised on a farm in Bethel, a rural town between Harrisburg and Allentown and becoming an important political LGBT activist in Central PA. His accounts at camp and high school reveal the difficulty of being gay and the interesting paths towards his independence. In Lebanon Valley College he was outed and blackballed at church, being called evil and having parents refuse to help him pay tuition. A gay couple started a foundation to help gay students complete college and Alex, a gifted child who received a scholarship, graduated a semester early. His tales about finding and working with a thriving gay community in Harrisburg are enthralling. He got an internship and became friends with Dan Miller, a leader in the gay community, in Dan’s accounting firm, Miller, Dixon, Drake. He tells in detail his work over ten years with Planned Parenthood, beginning with his own experience of being treated and shamed by a physician. He discusses his romance and marriage to his husband during the exciting time when marriage became legal in Pennsylvania. It was a momentous time. He explains what it was like attending the Equality March, primaries for Obama and Clinton, and his experience at the 2016 Democratic Convention. He recounts the inside stories of the contradictions and fun of local state politics— and stories about running candidates for state office and working on committees for the Democratic Party of Pennsylvania. He is very involved at the Center, FAB, and getting LGBT people to run for office.

Heidi Notario was born in Havana, Cuba, in 1973, where she was attending college for biology before moving to the United States in 1995. Heidi discusses her disillusion with the ideals of communism as a factor contributing to her desire to go live with her aunt in the U.S. After arrival, she learned English while working at a daycare center before returning to college, eventually completing a Bachelors in Sociology at Moravian College in Bethlehem, PA, and a graduate degree in Sociology from Lehigh University. Heidi discusses her relationship with her fifteen year old son, and what she has observed raising him as a lesbian and a single mother in Central Pennsylvania. She details her involvement as the vice-president at the LGBTQ Center of Central Pennsylvania, as well as her work on gender-based violence and Latinos at the National Resource Center on Domestic Violence. Heidi touches on intimate partner violence against LGBTQ, and especially trans-identifying, people, as well as the differences in LGBTQ communities in Harrisburg, Allentown, and other larger cities.

Emily Newberry was born in June of 1944 in St. Louis, Missouri, shortly thereafter moving to West Haven, Connecticut, and then Schenectady, New York, after her parents got divorced—a shameful and hidden family secret—and her dad remarried. Emily moved to the Central Pennsylvania area when she attended Dickinson College. Emily became involved in advocacy work while attending Dickinson. After graduation, she became a member of the Socialist Party and was involved with the organizations the Cleveland Draft Resistance Union and the American Communist Workers Movement, Marxist-Leninist. Working as a machinist and then as an organizational development consultant, Emily has been married three times herself, and today, lives in Portland, Oregon. In this interview, she discusses her experience repressing her transgender identity throughout her life until 2005. After coming out, Emily has faced discrimination from her workplace, insurance company, and therapists. She also discusses the importance of her women’s circles in fundraising enough money to have gender confirming surgery. Today, she continues her advocacy work as a performance poet and writer as well as attending panels regarding LGBT issues. She expresses how welcoming the Dickinson community has been during her visit back to campus.

Mary Nancarrow grew up in a suburb of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania in the 1950s and 1960s with divorced parents and two siblings. After graduating from Shippensburg University, she became prominent in the women’s movement and the LGBT movement in Central Pennsylvania, serving on the Governor’s Council for Sexual Minorities and the Rural Gay Caucus. Mary was also heavily involved in the National Organization for Women [NOW] and was elected NOW Pennsylvania President, working to pass marital rape legislation, funding and campaigning for political races, and fundraising money for the NOW PAC. After her presidency, she helped to plan the National March for LGBT Rights in Washington D.C. and volunteered for the Harrisburg Gay and Lesbian Switchboard. Today, Mary lives in Harrisburg and sings in the Women’s Chorus. In this interview, Mary discusses her childhood and early relationship to religion as well as her involvement with the anti-Vietnam War movement throughout high school and college. She also describes her contributions to Shippensburg Gays United, feminism within the gay rights movement, and the experience of coming out to her parents and friends. Mary concludes the interview by acknowledging the incredible extent to which the LGBT community has changed over her lifetime and expresses her hope to see ongoing growth in civil rights in the future.

Daniel (Dan) C. Miller’s colorful humor and personality were persistent throughout the interview. He shares his experiences growing up and coming out in his early 30s. His coming out experience was during his time working for Donald L. DeMuth. Specifically, homosexuality was listed as a fireable offense in his contract; the contract also contained one of the most overly broad non-compete clauses held up in a court of law. As Miller fought for the rights of the LGBT community he found himself thrust upon the public stage. Miller shares how he was fired from DeMuth and one year later faced a lawsuit on the basis of the non-compete clause; Miller countersued for wrongful termination. Miller contributes his lack of resources and knowledge of the legal system, as well as Judge Kevin Hess’s instruction to the jury, who did not want homosexuality to be a factor in the jury’s deliberation, as factors which caused him to lose the case. Despite the financial and incredible emotional cost of this case, he cites that gays around the area who had also been fired reached out to him. Dan Miller, who grew up without gay mentors or people to look to, became the hero he was looking for.

Daniel Maneval was born in Williamsport, Pennsylvania on October 3, 1947. In this interview, Daniel speaks frankly about his experiences growing up as an only child, about the homophobic violence he has experienced, and the gay organizations he has lead and participated in throughout his life. He specifically speaks on his experiences with his parent’s death and the independence he was forced to cultivate as a result. He first became involved with Susquehanna Valley Gays United and was a founding member of Homophiles of Williamsport. He also was a critical component to leading a protest against Anita Bryant, and participated in several Rural Gay Caucuses. He was forced to move out of his family home after homophobic gang-related attacks on his property, and experienced gay-bashing outside a bar in Williamsport. Daniel reflects on the differences he sees in the Williamsport LGBT community today. This interview provides an in-depth history of gay life in Williamsport from the 1950s to today.